Talk:Seed of Wonder
Earth origins I haven't read the comics/graphic novels, but browsing through the wikia, I'm a little confused on how humanity rose to prominence. Buffy lore points to the Shadow Men creating the Slayer and the Slayer slaying every last of the Old Ones. Angel lore and some of Buffy lore stated that the Powers that Be guided the mortal races to overthrow the Old Ones. I don't know how the Seed of Wonder fits into all of this. Was its power used by the Powers that Be in conjunction to whatever method they used plus the Slayers, or did the Seed have its own sentient goal, independent from the Powers that Be? FTWinchester (talk) 15:46, September 12, 2013 (UTC) :You're confused. The Slayer came after the vampires, which came after the Old Ones left Earth. Up until Buffy, no Slayer had ever encountered an Old One.--OzzMan (talk) 16:30, September 12, 2013 (UTC) :I suppose. It's just that the scythe of the Slayers was wielded by the slayer against the Old Ones (although the Guardian used the phrase "to kill the last pure demon that walked upon the earth"), or did the Guardian simply mean the scythe was created if ever an Old One ever sets foot on Earth again? And Illyria said vampires were contemporaneous with her and other Old Ones? FTWinchester (talk) 17:10, September 12, 2013 (UTC) :Illyria's dialogue is a continuity error on the part of the writers. She'd never encountered a vampire before Angel and Spike, because the last of the Old Ones to remain on Earth was the sire to the original vampire. I'd have to rewatch End of Days to interpret exactly what the Guardian's words meant, but I would hazard a guess right now that they were a reference to the Old Ones that Fray would eventually kill.--OzzMan (talk) 17:51, September 12, 2013 (UTC) :Alright, then. So the Seed of Wonder's role to keep all the Old Ones out was independent from the Powers that Be? Or was it utilized by the Powers to help the mortal races rise, as well? FTWinchester (talk) 18:48, September 12, 2013 (UTC) :The Seed attracted magical beings toward it. It didn't do anything to repel the Old Ones. Any power it granted to the PTB is simply by virtue of it being the source of all magic on Earth. It gave the PTB their abilities just like it gave vampires, demons, Slayers, and witches theirs, as it is the wellspring all magic flows from.--OzzMan (talk) 22:57, September 12, 2013 (UTC) :Forgive me, I'm not trying to challenge you here--I'm just really confused. Spike's quote in this page states that the "The Seed brought it forth... And the Seed kept it here. Kept the warring nasties and the bubbling magical energies from seeping back into the old dimension, wherever that was. Either the Earth was an improvement, a step up, or it was a ghetto. Either way, it was on its own. The Seed, the source of all that magic, was the only thing powerful enough to keep it from bleeding back. It's the key. Forget 'key', think 'cork'. As long as it's in its place—the Hellmouth, more recently known as Sunnydale—things stay more or less where they should. But pull it out..." It just seemed to me as if the Seed was sentient enough to plan to remove or keep away Old Ones, based on the quote. FTWinchester (talk) 03:02, September 13, 2013 (UTC) :Oh, don't worry, I get it. I'm more than happy to explain the idea to the best of my knowledge. Wouldn't be much of an Admin here if I didn't want to help out. There's been nothing to establish that the Seed is sentient or aware so far. It's simply a powerful beacon that attracted magical beings toward it once it came into being, but once the Old Ones and Powers That Be were in its dimension, they were unable to return to their old dimension because the power of the Seed kept them trapped here. So that bit doesn't refer to repelling the Old Ones out of Buffy's dimension, where the Seed is, but rather how it kept them trapped there, like a cork in a wine bottle. As for the other stuff, the mythology gets kind of murky here, but as I understand it, it was the rise of humanity that drove the Old Ones into other dimensions or the Deeper Well, culminating with Maloker, the final Old One to exist on Earth, biting a human and creating the first vampire.--OzzMan (talk) 12:28, September 13, 2013 (UTC) :That makes so much more sense now. Thanks! P.S. Does that mean the first vampires Maloker sired were the Turok-Han? FTWinchester (talk) 14:06, September 13, 2013 (UTC) :The answer to that one is "so far, we don't know." My theory is that, since we know vampires get more deformed as they age (The Master, Prince of Lies, Kakistos), then the Turok-Han are probably just really old vampires, and in fact the final stage of the deforming. Like, if Angel lived for hundreds of thousands of years, he would also become a Turok-Han. That's just speculation on my part, however, and in no way official. I tweeted at Joss, asking how the Turok-Han and Maloker were related, but so far, there's been no answer.--OzzMan (talk) 15:21, September 13, 2013 (UTC) :I hope he clears that up. He must be busy with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. But it should stand to reason that Turok-Hans would have been the first, as it has been clearly said they were older than the regular vampires. Thanks again. FTWinchester (talk) 17:55, September 13, 2013 (UTC)